Early Release: Patch 1.3.10

[binnister]

In spite of being on vacation, VR has come through for us.

As you know, you unzip the 'Patch 1.3.10.tgx' file to your main Kohan directory. (i.e. C:\Program Files\TimeGate Studios\Kohan Ahrimans Gift).

Then, next time you launch Kohan, place a check mark in the 'Patch 1.3.10' box, and launch Kohan.

NOTE: If you have never installed a 'Community' patch before, you should also download and install the '1.3.9.1' patch as it has the KIS SE Kohan's (that were first added in 1.3.8).

Have fun all!!!


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(From Word Doc)

AG-FE (Fourth Edition)

Dreadlords – 20mv, no movement modifier (+110% removed)

Scouts -> -1 Zone of Control (from 4 to 3), -10 hp (from 250hp to 240hp)
Horse Archers/Goats -> -1 Zone of Control (from 5 to 4)
Rangers/Pathfinders/Scouts – provides 115% Zone of Control
Horse Archers / Goats – provides 112% Zone of Control

Protection & Blessing Kohans – receive ‘-1 DV vs Any’ at Awakened. (Removed at Enlightened).

(Kohans effected: Ravid, Sarai, Navaa, Sebastian, Dylan, Darya, Thora, Dali, Jilla, Solomon, Kendra, Sadira, Darius, Roxanna)

Shadow Knights – build requirements changed to Mana Forge (changed from BS/Rax). Retains 1.3.9.1 stats (30av/12dv/16mv, 60% damage vs. archer).

Sorceress – New spell ‘Brittle’ – same as current ‘Ice Storm’ (50 damage/Duration: 15s/Paralyze), but with added effect: (115% vs any, 15s duration). Same description as ‘Ice Storm’, but add: “The frozen targets are more susceptible to damage”

Celebrant –Change component requirements to: Barracks, Light of Faith (upped Temple), Library.

Lancer – +2AV vs Cavalry. No component requirement (changed from Blacksmith).

Crossbows – Reduce AV(ranged) from 54 to 50

National Settlements – all settlements have a ‘bonus’ SurrenderModifier of -0.1

Paladin – increase move to 20mv (from 16mv)
Avatar – increase move to 22mv (from 18mv)

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[2478,pc,http://s8pstats.timegate.com/pc/api/clantags/ Mistwraithe]

Thanks Bin for putting the time in to collate everything together and get the patch process back on track.

And thanks to VR too of course! You need to get your internet connection sorted out and play online with us again!

[JadeLotus]

Sorc still too weak? How about 150% frail on single unit? 115 is really really conservative.

Celebrant still not so hot? What was the motivation for changing the requirement to rax from iron? So now you can make out of town ... lance/celeb/ugh?

And how about changing workshop to produce
+4s +4w +4i +4m (net 40g equivalent)
versus current
+8s +8w +8i (net 48g equivalent)

and reduce billet to 28% and increase workshop upgrade cost to 96 just to be on the safe side.

It's not supposed to be so damn hard to get mana for roys. I've heard in the beta workshop used to produce +5 all resources so it isn't really the way it was originally conceived.

Everyone knows roys have no midgame without indy.. And no endgame either. All because of the difficulty of mana production.

[marduk]

The req of the celebrant was changed so you could keep the billet.

Please try to keep up with the disscusion so you don't end up wasting our time.

[JadeLotus]

Originally Posted by marduk

The req of the celebrant was changed so you could keep the billet.

Please try to keep up with the disscusion so you don't end up wasting our time.

Keep the billet and make what/celeb/what? For the purpose of x? At least before that, inf/celeb/cler had limited applications.. now i'm not sure celeb has any, even niche applications at all.

[binnister]

Keep the billet and make what/celeb/what?

Lancer was changed to 'no component' requirements.

means that you can alternate stick/celeb/x & Lancer/Celeb/x to make use of both wood and iron front lines.

[Omega Red]

Nice to see people put a lot of work into the new patch...

Imho the only change required was a nerf to DL a movement reduction of sorts
Roy really didnt need any more help..... they are very strong as is .... specially if you have a cil or nat on your team... I was happy with sorcs as they were, i dont think they were ever meant to be a strong unit, just a unit that makes retreating/flanking costly for the opposition. a few sorcs put into a mix always made things a little interesing.

I think the point is not to continually improve poor units but rather weaken the overpowered units..

Also some units are meant to be stronger than others ( but in most cases the weaker unit has specific use)

Cheers

[marduk]

Royals are still #4 on the depth chart.


Saria got killed last night as I looked away to deal with another front. It was a fiht she should have won, so I guess that changed works. I need to pay closer attention to my "uber" goons.

[Carlos Maury]

True enough that roy midgame is difficult with limited mana.

That's why with all the other resources and comp limit, you can produce a lot of front line fodder, while the allies clean house with their mana troops. There is a way even as roy to produce decent mana troops, ie. sorcs, etc. I've been doing inf/cler/celeb late game for some reason, don't exactly know why. It's difficult to produce mana, but a decent amount can be produced. How else can roy BP when needed. Also, I think that extra resources from workshops=export. That way the econ should cover the mana deficiency.

On the subject of the patch, I think DL was the only thing that needed to be nerfed, but all in all, it's a great patch. Kudos to VR, and wish I could see ya in game.

[scripca]

hi binnister!

i think u do good work to make kag more balanced because its imba but fun. but i think u and others make a mistake from beginning.
i think u cant balance 4v4 games. i mean thats impossible.
because in big games, means more then 2v2 all things are timing. in most 4v4 games its a 3v4 and 1 player does eco. so if he gets a good unit very fast most say the unit is imba. but the mistake made the opposit team. ( no scouting no scanning no guessing)

i think if u want to balance a game u have to do it 1v1. then u can really see if things are imba.
for example u changed lancer av +2. how u know that they are imba? i mean do u know it after 10, 15 or 20 min in a game? or if they fight other units?

i think if u want to know that, u have to do testings: roy vs nat, roy vs cil, roy vs cey ( i know u test but in other way maybe) because u need a-time, b-gold, and c-buildings to get lancer. and u need x-time, y-gold, and z-buildings to get the opposit units.

for example if u can get 2 slancer vs 1 goon could be ok if a+b+c=x+y+z.
or is it 2.5 slancers vs 1 goon? i dunno
i think thats the way to balance the units.

a similar problem is nat vs...
if u say nat has less troops, it could be balanced if nat gets better troops vs mass troops.

then the kohans. the healer kohans are too strong. but the problem is if u do them weaker they die fast to flank and goon=dead.
i think for healer kohans 6 dv would be ok but then u have to change the units av in the right way. thats very much work. so i think the easier way is to make some meele kohan stronger. that would also eliminate the flank problem.

i dont want to critizice somebody. just show another point of view. because we had some patches. but in my view all only displaced the imbalance.
if some thinkings are not clear im sry im not the best in english.
and again i dont want to affront somebody.

[[GM]Bartleby]

i dont understand the "zone of control" changes, does that really change something in battle? well it makes bowmen tougher.. but.. well... dont know.

celebrant... never heard of a problem with them, anyway - sounds good.

first i didnt liked the lancer changes, but they are quite expensive, so - also a good change.

all together the right way. good job, more patches

EDIT: welcome on the forum scripca

EDIT: BILLET WASNT CHANGED?

[binnister]

Bart:

The billet was on the initial list of changes, but the discussion that followed convinced me that changing the billet now would hurt the Royals more than it hurt would the other factions, which sort of defeats the purpose.

Hopefully, with the information that VR has passed on about making 'faction-specific' changes, we can now find the right 'thing' to do for the Royals.

[JadeLotus]

Originally Posted by marduk

Royals are still #4 on the depth chart.


Saria got killed last night as I looked away to deal with another front. It was a fiht she should have won, so I guess that changed works. I need to pay closer attention to my "uber" goons.

I have to agree with Duk. As much as I would like to think that Royalists are the best faction.. they really aren't at all. One observation that i think can give a key to an answer why is there is no decent starting build with over 32 econ. Having your expansion derivative set that low in the very beginning of the game is a very, very big detriment. And the comp limit advantage is unused in 90% of the games (goon/ha seems to be the standard with 5/2 or goon/ha/scout at 5/3 with gimped econ). Ceyah has a spectrum of strong openings starting with 2 sbs build on one end and 6 kohaned skels at around 0 on the other end. Cil is also very versatile. Nats are very good too. Roys don't really have a strong enough opening with decent econ, add costly upgrades and no way to get mana whatsoever and you end up with very late midgame troops (too late), and forget about endgame unless you get really lucky with lairs and indies.

Basically what i'm saying is that surface area under your econ graph (total gold produced) is rougly proportional to _square_ of the initial slope (build econ).

Also workshops have a very major weakness of being too vulnerable. To the point that top players back in the days (raad) never made workshops. Even back when settles were 60.. workshops were still not so hot. You can still have your goon ha at +30 with 2 settles at a fraction of econ vulnerability.

[JadeLotus]

Originally Posted by binnister

Lancer was changed to 'no component' requirements.

means that you can alternate stick/celeb/x & Lancer/Celeb/x to make use of both wood and iron front lines.

I haven't used lance/celeb much.. Last time i remember using those was vs a reg of goats and they worked ok because the shower worked good vs crappy goat morale but it was a very niche application. I think lancer/celeb/x has too many morale problems to be considered a useful trenchwar frontline unit.. And too slow to be a useful raiding unit. And still too expensive to be a unit with no clear application. Lance/elem/elem howeve ris probably alright.. I guess I do like the no iron for lancers change but celebs still suck, no matter what the component requirements are.

[2478,pc,http://s8pstats.timegate.com/pc/api/clantags/ Mistwraithe]

- The main weakness Roys have is the lack of a high econ start build.

- This means people who prefer high econ starts and/or mana armies will tend to prefer other factions (with some notable exceptions such as Asmo).

- This also means that Roys are weaker in games where high econ start builds are common.

- Increasingly pickup games seem to involve a lot of high econ start builds with comparatively low military forces early. As mentioned above Roy can be at a disadvantage in this environment.

- In a more aggressive environment with moderate to high starting troops on both sides I honestly find Roy does fine, well even. They can expand from a 30ish starting econ as easily as Nat and probably easier than Cey and Cil can. Plus their 30ish econ start builds have just as much military power as equivalent econ start builds from other factions with the significant benefit of keeping excellent components in their main for recruiting a very wide variety of cheap additional troops.

--------------------------------

If people feel it is necessary for Roy to have a high econ start build because today's pickup games require it then:

a) At least wait a few weeks to see how Roy do now. The changes made in 1.3.10 don't give Roy a high econ start but they do give them more options in aggressive medium/high troop games (including 1v1s). Some time will be required to get a grip on any possible flow on effects from that.

b) If people do want to give Roy a high econ start build then make sure they have to trade off significantly on troops in order to do it. I really don't think you should just make their already strong military goon/ha/scout build have more econ. You will also need to carefully consider the billet because a high econ start with a billet would grow big very rapidly.

c) Try to maintain the Roy faction's flavour. They are described as a militaristic faction which specialises in cavalry. Hence the 2 pop limit, high resource production and three faction specific cavalry units. Please don't just make them into another Council.

Note I still see no need for it because I enjoy the distinct factions as they are.